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June 15, 2021

Charles Manson And The Family

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He may be long dead, but Charles Manson continues to strike fear in the hearts of many. This gaunt, unshaven man with wild eyes can be seen in dozens of photographs from the late 1960s and early 1970s – a period in American history that, interestingly enough, was marked by peace movements alongside murderous cults, serial killers, and all sorts of violence.

Perhaps no other man embodies this chaotic period than Charles Manson. In life, he was known as a prophet and leader; however, he has since come to be regarded as evil incarnate, who turned a bunch of free-thinking youngsters into mass murderers.


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Sources for this episode include All That’s Interesting, Vox News, ThoughtCo, Biography, Encyclopedia Britannica, TIME Magazine, The Mirror, a book titled “Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders” by Vincent Bugliosi and Curt Gentry, Famous Trials, the Los Angeles Times, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Psychology Today, a Psych Blog from Penn State University, and Smithsonian Magazine

Research by: Kayla Deleon

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[00:00:00] Josh:Hi Fred, my name is Josh Schell host of the Let's Start A Cult podcast, the only podcast to be banned from Tik Tok for speaking against Q Anon. That's right. Tik Tok is now a confirmed Q Anon supporter. And that is definitely not a

conspiracy theory. now with that along the way, let me introduce you, my guests, this episode, they are from the dark and informative true-crime podcast, crime and compulsion.

 From serial killers to unsolved mysteries, this amazing husband and wife duo tackle it all. Please welcome to the podcast. Karen and Ben, how are you guys doing?

CrimeAndCompulsion:Hey, we're doing good. Amazing, well, that's Awesome. Thank you for describing us that way.

Josh:How would you? Did I, did I miss anything?

CrimeAndCompulsion:Oh, no, that's way better than I could have done it. So.

Josh:Uh, perfect. In today's episode of Let's Start A Cult, we will be talking about Charles Manson and the horrific murder spree that he orchestrated arguably, one of the most infamous cult leaders of all time, the things that he ordered his family to do forever shattered the sense of safety and security that the American public enjoyed.

Now, so this episode actually [00:01:00] came together much differently than many of my other episodes. Usually, I just surprise my guests with the cult,  mostly because I enjoy the fear that they don't know what's coming. But you guys actually requested to do the Manson family together. So I have to ask off the bat, what is it about the Manson family that made you want to come on the show?

CrimeAndCompulsion:You want to answer that? Or you want me to go back? Karen is obsessed with that case. That's what made us want to do it.

He tries, you know, he tries to be like, oh, he's this big real hippy guy, but he's like a sociopath Troubadour. Right? Like he just, he wanted to be a rock star. He was a con man. And he's not this hippie guy.

Josh:Yeah, he does come off portrayed a lot in the media as a, just as a hippie, probably because of the drugs mostly, but uh, and the long hair. Yeah, he does fit the narrative a lot, but he is way smarter than I think. The public gives them credit for um, and much more devious, I think than a hippie.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Oh yeah, definitely.

[00:02:00] Josh:Most hippies, don't orchestrate mass murder or murders. You know what I

CrimeAndCompulsion:Typically not .

Josh:They're just hugging trees and

CrimeAndCompulsion:Smoking trees.

Josh:Yeah, smoking trees. Damn it. This is why I have you on Ben.  It sounds like you, I have, some knowledge on the topic. So if I miss anything, hopefully, you can jump in and correct me or, throw something in Ben, I'm mostly here for your quick  quips and we'll go from there.

CrimeAndCompulsion:I'll try not to let you down.

Josh:All right. We're going to start off with the early years of Charles. Born on November 12th, 1934 in Cincinnati, Ohio, Charles Manson was a son of a 16-year-old prostitute named Kathleen who often started and ended the day with a bottle of liquor.

Uh, which nowadays is pretty common, but back in the days, not so much.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Just a typical Friday night.

Josh:Yeah, exactly. It's its pandemic. It's fine. She christened her son, Charles Mills, Madox eventually changing his surname to the now infamous [00:03:00] Manson. When she married a local man named William Eugene Manson, who worked at a dry cleaning business from the get-go Kathleen showed little interest in being a mother to her son.

During one instance, she took him to a cafe where a waitress who found young Charles adorable, jokingly asked if she could buy him. In response. Kathleen said that her son could be exchanged for a pitcher of alcohol. After finishing this, she got up, left him at the cafe and never

looked back.

It took Charles's uncles several days of frantically searching for him throughout the entire town before he managed to locate the waitress.

 Um, so you

two are parents. I don't know. Have you ever come into someone asking you to buy your kid? It seems a little



yet. Maybe we just haven't gone enough places with them.

Maybe our kids just aren't better. Adorable that to

Josh:Oh God.

CrimeAndCompulsion:my question is I hope that that bottle was like a good one. Then at least some top-shelf liquor that was offered for

Josh:I'm going to guess. It [00:04:00] wasn't, it was at a cafe. Like,

CrimeAndCompulsion:this is what we have under the counter. That was all we got left.

Josh:This is a this is what I brought into work today. So here you go. yeah, so a pretty terrible start to his childhood already. you can clearly see where some of his repressed

emotions come from.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Oh a hundred percent.

Josh:due to his mother's indifference, Charles was instead shipped off to various relatives, all of whom failed to provide them with the warmth and welcoming home that he so badly craved. For instance, his grandmother  was a religious nut. , well, one of his uncles frequently ridiculed his feminine nature  another uncle committed suicide upon learning that his properties would be seized, even though he had been his nephew's primary guardian at the time.

Living with relatives did nothing for Charles. And so he attempted to reconcile with his mother in the hopes that she had discovered her maternal instincts during their time apart. He was sorely disappointed though. Clean remained uninterested in playing the part of a mother to him, overlooked [00:05:00] by his relatives and ignored by his own mother.

Nine-year-old Charles began to seek attention elsewhere. His shoplifting antics landed him at the gimbal school for boys in . . Terre Haute, Indiana. It wasn't long before he had escaped from the facility, despite its strict security measures very wily kid. he's nine years old and he's shoplifting and, and getting away with it, like escaping from basically a

prison, which is pretty impressive.

Yeah. I'll give it to them.

CrimeAndCompulsion:it's already showing that criminal mind.

Josh:That's very true. Yeah. he's showing that he's

smarter than the average


CrimeAndCompulsion:Someone that we covered was that, that same boy school. was it the lipstick killer?

Josh:Interesting. What did the, okay. I have to, like, we have to go on this tangent. What did the lipstick killer do?

CrimeAndCompulsion:so he was connected to these three murders. but it's debatable. John Douglas, the FBI guy, the mindhunter guy actually like [00:06:00] backtracked, not too long ago and said that he's convinced that William Hirons actually was not the killer.

Josh:Very interesting.

CrimeAndCompulsion:But supposedly he murdered

three women.

Josh:and that's why they call him the lipstick killer because he murdered women. Totally.

CrimeAndCompulsion:was the second murder? He either took like a pupil lipstick from the victim or apparently brought his own and wrote a message on the wall saying something like in just of you need to stop me now. I can't stop myself. And that's how I got dubbed the lipstick killer.

Josh:Okay. Well, I mean, that's an interesting case. Definitely go check that out. it's kind of funny. It had the, how they name killers back in the day. They're just like, oh, he used lipstick right this one time. And he's the lipstick killer now. even though it sounded like he was crying for help, so um,

CrimeAndCompulsion:want to kill.

Josh:Yeah, exactly.

 so after Charles escaped, he was intercepted by authorities and sent back. However, this was only the , beginning of a childhood filled with [00:07:00] one, youth reform school and one escape after another the year that Charles turned 17, saw him arrested after being caught driving a stolen car across state lines.

 This wouldn't be his last time in federal prison. And when he was released for the last time on March 21st, 1967, he had already acquired a rap sheet that

was a mile long filled to the brim with various charges related to auto theft, assault and petty larceny.

 His final prisons. , involved a seven-year-old,

a seven-year sentence at the . McNeil island penitentiary Purget Sound. He was taken after being convicted of crossing state lines with intent of prostitution. While inside, he began flirting with the idea of Scientology and also began considering a career in music upon getting out.

Charles did try to make it as a musician after his release. However, he instead became famous for something else

entirely. I think we all know what that

is, but it is kind of cool that he actually won that. Cool. I don't know if that's the right word, but he flirted with the idea of [00:08:00] Scientology, which is

very interesting.

CrimeAndCompulsion:so crazy about that. So He took like 130 hours of like Scientology classes in prison. And even he was like this shit sounds a little too crazy for me.

Josh:yeah, but not for Tom cruise,

Tom cruise read that. And he said,

yeah, that sounds like my cup of

CrimeAndCompulsion:Let me just go jump on this couch.

Josh:Yeah. Yeah. So I haven't done Scientology yet. I keep flirting with the idea of that as well. So,

CrimeAndCompulsion:Hello, man. That might be your last episode though.

Josh:can't wait, that'll be a fun one. I'll make it a five-part series just to go out

CrimeAndCompulsion:There you go.

Josh:in, in

flames. Um, yeah, well, I'm in Canada.

Maybe they can't reach me up

CrimeAndCompulsion:That's true.

Josh:after prison, Charles headed off to San Francisco, California with only a guitar and a bag of hallucinogen drugs to his name, which is the best way to head to San Francisco opinion.

CrimeAndCompulsion:The other way to go to

California in the sixties.

[00:09:00] Josh:Absolutely

CrimeAndCompulsion:sure they stop you at the state border and make sure that you have at least those two items.

Josh:Yeah. They're like, sir where's your, your guitar and your bag of drugs. Uh, he found the cities the city's Bohemian and young atmosphere incredibly appealing believing it to be the perfect source of inspiration for his music. Thanks to his innate charisma.

He managed to attract a small group of young adults who shared his interests and beliefs.  among them was 22 year old Mary Bruner uh, Wilson, Wisconsin, native, who worked as a librarian at the university of California's Berkeley campus. Charles was a decade older than Mary. However, this huge age gap didn't stop her from quickly falling in love with him enticed by the life he offered, which was a far cry from the monotonous existence that she'd been leading.

He introduced her to hallucinogen generic drugs and her usage increase. So does her obsession with him? yeah, I mean, being a librarian is definitely the monotonous part. So someone offers you drugs. You're going to probably go with [00:10:00] just to get some spark in your life.

CrimeAndCompulsion:typically when you do more drugs, you need more drugs. That's how it works.

Josh:Yeah, exactly. who knows if she was actually into him or just the drugs and. The

CrimeAndCompulsion:That's a good question for a lot of his followers.

Josh:That's very true, actually. After moving in together, Mary quitter cushy job and began preaching to others about Charles' ideologies and the life that he could provide them with, with her persuasive words and his magnetism, they quickly amassed a small following by 19 68, 34 year old, Charles had become the leader of a group that he referred to as.

The family, it consisted of a like-minded group who found themselves enthralled with this sinister prophecies and religious teachings, which combined science fiction with the occult and fringe psychology. So, you know, Scientology basically, it's, there's a lot of overlap, I think considering you took so many courses 

In particular, Charles sold them on the idea that an apocalyptic war would soon lay waste to the United States, paving the way for the family to gain fame, power, and dominance. He claimed to have experienced visions of the scene. Although experts would later claim that he had been merely suffering from delusions, which I think we probably could have all guessed. I don't know if we need experts for that. Um,

CrimeAndCompulsion:The Beatles knew all about them. God and the Beatles were talking directly to him. Well, he thought that the white album, like that was my message to him.

Josh:Helter-skelter yeah, that actually that's the next set next paragraph. So you're you're right on track. I should just let you take care of that.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Well, I was going to say, so hell Helter Skelter. Like he thought, you know, he was convinced that that was the message to him about this crazy, like coming like race war. But honestly, I think he just confused, like the black power movement and he was like really high and he just wanted power and he was also mad that he wasn't a rock star.

[00:12:00] Josh:I think he was just a racist,

CrimeAndCompulsion:Oh, he was a huge racist as well. Yeah.

Josh:Yeah. Yeah, you're exactly right with that. he believed that the song Helter Skelter spoke to him and predicted, yeah, an interracial war that would take place on the summer of 69 in which black Americans would rise and slaughter every single white American, they laid their eyes on, in revenge for what they and their ancestors had been put through.

Which if we're being honest, I wouldn't a hundred percent blame them for that. Yeah. It would have been a broken for it. Exactly. Yeah, hard to tell if he's a racist or if he just truly believed it from the drugs. It's, it's hard to

CrimeAndCompulsion:Probably a little bit of both.

Josh:You're probably right, actually. Yeah. Yeah. As terrifying as this vision was, Charles told his family that this, his prophecy had shown that they would all survive the massacre.

If they managed to hide in the underground city of gold in the heart of death valley, Charles delivered these sermons while high on a mix of LSD magic mushrooms and other hallucinogenic drugs given as a charisma and passionate speeches, it was easy for him to convince followers what he was saying. It was the truth.

I mean, I think if you're going to try and convince people at being high is probably the best way to do it because. It takes away all your stage fright. You just immediately picture them all is insects or whatever. I don't know.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Sound like you're speaking from experience.

Josh:Uh, I do every single episode high on all this than that I had, I listened to that. I can't even speak. So it's proof.

It's all the drugs you guys are just

CrimeAndCompulsion:Were insects to, you

Josh:Yeah, exactly.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Know, it also helps that he, it was a rule that his followers also had to do LSD. So it also helps when your audience is incredibly high as well.

Josh:Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

It's it makes watch watching terrible content that much more enjoyable, which I think most people watching Netflix can confirm,

CrimeAndCompulsion:Well, and they drank Belladonna tea all the time, too. so they were Like really fucked up.

Josh:Yeah. Yeah. They,

I had [00:14:00] them my next sentence here. the, they were also high on drugs. the members of the family saw their leader is

a figure akin to Jesus Christ, a prophet

whose words should be followed if they wanted a chance at life. so you could see how much they revered him. as you said, whether it be off the drugs or, or actually believing his car charisma.

well, Charles enjoyed his  status as the head of the family. He continued to Harbor dreams of his music career. This led them to approach one of his friends, a music teacher named Gary Heineman. Who in turn introduced them to Dennis Wilson,

one of the co founding members of the popular 1960s rock band, the beach boys, Dennis loved the song that Charles had come up with , even going so far as to record one of them under the title , never learned not to love.

He also arranged a meeting , with the

renowned producer, Terry Melcher, however, this amounted to nothing and the disappointed Charles returned to his family. Uh, so kind of following the same arc as Hitler and a little bit here not to bear the two they're very different levels of terrible, [00:15:00] but Hitler applied to go to art school and got rejected and you know, under that, like it, it harbors a certain amount of anger.

And I think that begins to come up after this as we'll probably see. Yeah.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Yeah. It's like, that's where it took a turn for like darker and more frenetic energy for


Josh:Yeah. White men are fragile.

And when, when we are disappointed, it doesn't go well. And in the history, which is a very sad um,

CrimeAndCompulsion:What was crazy about him eating the meat and Dennis from the beach boys is here. So they moved in with Dennis for four months. Yeah. Him and his whole family. and part of the reason that Dennis really liked him was not because of his music, but because yeah, like it basically treated them as sex slaves and made them have sex with whoever whenever they wanted so that he, could do So Charles could do whatever he wanted

Josh:we have

to cancel the beach boys? I think


CrimeAndCompulsion:damn drummers, Ben. Yeah, [00:16:00] those drummers, get ya. and like, so the actual mansion that they moved into Dennis's master. And So he was renting it after her few months, he got sick of them and tried to kick them out, but they just refused to leave. And so Dennis literally just moved out himself and the landlord had to

deal with it.

Josh:Oh my God. That's , that is terrible on like just what a way to treat people. And crazy to think he had so much success with the beach boys after all this. yeah, that that's that's sad. we're gonna start a hashtag canceled beach boys, even though I don't know if any of them are alive anymore.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Think a little too late to cancel.

Josh:yeah. that's true. uh, that they in their ambitions had outgrown San Francisco with the family relocated to the abandoned.  span ranch, which was situated Southwest of San Fernando valley. It had been a popular filming location during the 1940s and 1950s playing a role in many thrillers and westerns at the [00:17:00] time.

It also proved to be the perfect place for the family who turned the property into a compound reserve only for them in their belief that this was the first step in surviving the apocalyptic racial war. Just saying that is a ridiculous title. not everything went to plan though when the summer of 1969 came and went without a single black American seeking

revenge, the family decided to take matters into their own hands to kickstart the conflict.

They murdered Gary Heinemann Charles Long time acquaintance on July 25th, 1969. What a way it'd be like, oh, the race war didn't happen. Let's start our

own. Like what w how do you

CrimeAndCompulsion:prophecy there

Josh:We'll make the prophecy come true. It's how, I don't know. That's some backwards logic, but I guess that's every culture

CrimeAndCompulsion:and then no followers like, mm. This does not seem right then.

Josh:Yeah, the prophecy didn't come true.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Just kind of wait a little longer guys.

Josh:Yeah, I guess at that point, if [00:18:00] you're a follower and you're that bought

in, you're like, have I wasted my life and time just following this guy? Uh it's

it's hard to maybe face that reality. So you convince yourself of anything else, I


CrimeAndCompulsion:So this is the time when like a lot of his followers started dropping off because of that reason. and I think that's what pushed him to

create it himself.

Josh:Yeah, which is a good point

as well. to help keep

some kind of control over everything for sure.  Charles told his followers that Gary's death was for the public good, but privately, he had been under the impression that his friend had inherited approximately $20,000, which should have gone a long way in sustaining them at the relatively remote span ranch.

But the promise of a big payout. He ordered his most loyal followers, Bobby solely Susan

Atkins and Mary Bruner to carry out the murder. But despite the trio's best effort at torturing Gary Hyman, he refused to budge and continue to assert that there was no money in this home. Frustrated Charles sliced his ear and cheek with a [00:19:00] samurai sword that he had brought with them all.

If you're going to a murder, you might as well bring a samurai sword.


else would you bring?

Josh:it? Yeah, it's every nerd's dream. They get to finally use it. unsurprisingly, this left a huge mess. And 22 year old Bobby was solely was given the sorted task of , cleaning everything up, however he panicked and instead ended up killing Gary.

This turned out  for the best though, with Charles deciding that they would use the body of his old friend to spark the apocalyptic interracial war that they had claimed would happen. so always glass half,  full with  Charles van dipping their fingers into Gary's blood Bobby and the two girls wrote the words, political pig on the wall of their victim's home to further convince the authorities , that it had been a racially motivated crime.

They also drew a prop print, which implied that the murder was committed by the controversial African-American organization, the black Panthers I don't know if they thought that entirely through. I mean, I guess they're thinking on the

fly here, but like, why would the black Panthers in S like [00:20:00] mark the wall, like to let everyone know that they did it?

I don't think that accomplishes

much. You know

CrimeAndCompulsion:was the worst way to try to frame


Josh:Yeah. Like be a little bit more subtle about it. It's the police weren't convinced that Gary had been killed by the black Panthers,

obviously. And a few days after the murder, they arrested Bobby solely whom they found sleeping inside the victim's car, still in the bloody clothes that he had here


Josh:in the bloody clothes.

So like, it's like, you couldn't have been anywhere else. You know what I mean?

CrimeAndCompulsion:It basically should have just waited by the dead body and just fall

asleep there for them.

Josh:Well, exactly. Yeah, he should've just waited and said that I did it. It was definitely not the black Panthers arrest me now. that's essentially what he did.  also attempted to conceal the knife that  he had used in his trunk, a trunk tire, although this was quickly uncovered to so clearly a mastermind.

Um, in the end, Bobby was convicted of Gary's murder and sentenced  with the death penalty, which was later commuted to life [00:21:00] imprisonment. His arrest, however, came only a few days  before the family committed the horrific massacres that they would eventually become known

for.  yeah.

So that's a, that's a heavy one. Uh, Bobby , uh, it's tough because I know he comes out later on in life talking about how he felt. He was influenced very strongly and like, it, it, he couldn't be blamed for the murders necessarily, but yeah, definitely not the smartest move to sleep in the car and, and not even try to get away with it.

CrimeAndCompulsion:LSD is a hell of a drug man.

Josh:that's true. That's true. And whatever the T was that you mentioned On August 9th, 1969, Charles Manson ordered four members of his family, Ted Watson, Suzanne Atkins, Lyndon, , Casa Bina, and Patricia Crenn Winkle to head up to 11 0 5 0 Sileo drive in Los Angeles where they would murder the people inside this property belonged to the music producer, Terry Melcher who had once looked [00:22:00] down on Charles and his dreams of a music career.

At the time though, the home had been leased to the actress, Sharon Tate, who was married to the world, renowned film director, Roman Polanski. Roman away working on a movie set in Europe though. And his heavily pregnant wife was being visited by her friends, J Sebring wichinski.

Are Koski and Abigail, a fuller, fuller, older

Bulger, Folgers.

CrimeAndCompulsion:as her family does the coffee.


CrimeAndCompulsion:She's the heir to the Folger coffee or was


Josh:There's so many like cool little tidbits of facts in this story. Like, cause I guess it is in Hollywood, right?

CrimeAndCompulsion:Yeah. Related to someone. And then one of the guys that was there, it was her ex fiance. I think it was like Jay bring was her, was her ex fiance


CrimeAndCompulsion:Tate's ex


Josh:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All four of them were inside the home  on Cielo drive, when the family broke in upon

which they put up a valley and struggle in a bid to save their [00:23:00] lives.

However, they were no match for Charles followers who had armed themselves to the teeth with guns and knives. and probably very high. So they just do not give a shit. If we can assume anything from the past many years, they're probably high as well.

Sharon did all, she could to save the life of her unborn child, even going so far as to beg the family, to allow her to give birth in the living room. Her please, when unheated though, and ultimately every single person in the house was found with . Multiple horrific stab wounds.

Jay Sebring had seven Abigail Folger had over 28. so they clearly didn't like the coffee. That's a terrible joke. But for Kolsky suffered 51 and Sharon Tate had 16. Besides these four, the family also killed a man named Steven parent who unluckily enough had decided


stop by the property as he was the caretaker. Charles had ordered his family to leave behind a which he signed. And so Susan Atkins in a horrifying echo of the first

murder. You Sharon Tate's blood to write the word [00:24:00] pig on the front door. don't know.

He clearly didn't learn from the first,

CrimeAndCompulsion:They were not buying into it.

Josh:Yeah, that

the pigs, like, what is that going to do?

CrimeAndCompulsion:That's what the black Panthers referred to as, as police. And then you're going to name these high profile white people as pigs. Like that's not. what they

would have done anyway.

Josh:yeah, well, exactly. And on top of it,

you're connecting it to the very last murder where the guy who was very heavily involved in your group killed someone. So it. But they're obviously gonna, it's gonna lead to you guys very clearly.

CrimeAndCompulsion:They're masterminds. That's what they


Josh:geniuses. Yeah. Maybe Ben is right. This guy is just a dumb hippie.

CrimeAndCompulsion:You know, this actually happened like three or four days before Woodstock. Wow. They could have been like getting high and listening to music and making their voyage, but instead there

were off killing people.

Josh:They could have been enjoying the beach boys



[00:25:00] Yeah. Well, everyone inside that Cielo drive home had been slaying. The turn of events was far from what Charles had originally envisioned in particular, the panic that the victims experience, as well as Abigail Folger's near successful escape attempt disgusted him because he desired to clean and neat crime.

So a bit of an OCD guy for murders. nothing else though. He's

CrimeAndCompulsion:He's also apparently like really mad that they didn't steal more like money and items for money, you know, to, because apparently at this time that they were like extremely hungry and like incredibly broke, they were high as shit. Like you're going to ask a bunch of young kids high on LSD to actually do shit properly.

Come on.

Josh:yeah, exactly. They're just a bunch of, as Ben said, they're a bunch of hippies.  how do you expect them to perform a clean cut murder and get away on unscathed   and I mean, fair enough. They should have definitely took more money. Cause what do they really get up from this murder?

They get this false sense of [00:26:00] they're going to frame the black Panther movement. Like, I don't understand really what they're getting from all of this.

CrimeAndCompulsion:You know, I think some of them really were psychopaths and sociopaths And.

They would have at some point on something terrible, regardless because Susan brag to her gel made about the murders. And she said that she was planning on cutting out, Tate's baby out of her belly, but she just didn't have enough time to

do it.




CrimeAndCompulsion:So just to get dark for a second. Well, you also don't stab someone 50 or 51 towns, 57 times if like you're not enjoying it And then somebody else got stabbed 27 times. Like,

they clearly were

either overly enthusiastic or they got pleasure out of


Josh:yeah. at that point, it's like, you've almost stabbed a total of, I dunno, quick math it's over 80

times probably. like in total, that's pretty crazy. I don't know what 

or sorry.


CrimeAndCompulsion:her name is so weird

Josh:Yeah, it is a very [00:27:00] weird name. I don't know why they decided to stab them for 51 times. she was fighting back more.

I don't, I don't know, but it there, yeah, as you said, Ben is clearly, there's some sort of uh, enjoyment out of the entire thing where they probably could have stabbed them five times and finished the job and then. Got the money wrote pig on the door cause they needed to, and then gotten out of there. But yeah, clearly  not masterminds in any sense of the word.

again, he was fresh, his family's failure

to correctly carry out his orders, which was why  the following

day on

August 10th, he ordered them to drive

out from Spain ranch once more. This time, he increased the band of murderers by including two more of his loyal followers.

Leslie van Hotan and Clem Grogan. He also accompanied the group in order to show them how to properly and neatly murder people, because what better way than they get hands-on experience from your teacher? Am I right? the family headed to 33 [00:28:00] 0 1 Waverley drive where the supermarket executor they've  Leno Bianca, and his wife, Rosemary lived there, they bound the couple and

covered their heads with pillow cases, which they secured in place using a lamp cord that they had found in the living room.

Tex Watson, the defacto leader of the group. Ordered the woman

to take Rosemary into the bedroom

before proceeding to stab Leno with a bayonet, his final

thrust went straight through the businessman's throat, a fatal blow that undoubtedly ended his life. However, the women were less

successful with Rosemary who fought them off by viciously swinging the lamp tied around her neck.

even though the pillow case obscured, her vision texts, Watson had to be called inside

the room where he stabbed her with the bayonet. that have been used to kill her husband, Leslie van Holden later stabbed her as well.

. so yeah, kind of it's a sad ending, but I mean, kudos to Rosemary for fighting off, like,

getting the lamp tied around her neck

seems to be like, Yeah, just going, just go into town, fighting off a group of people That's

good for [00:29:00] her. Yeah, that is bad-ass. if we should remember any name it's hers,  before leaving the property, the family, again, sought to leave behind their mark because you can't not do it. Am I right?

CrimeAndCompulsion:Just had to stick with


Josh:On Leno's abdomen, Tex Watson carved the word war, but Patricia rise and death to pigs on the wall of Labox house.  using their blood and on the couple's refrigerator doors, she also misspelled uh, she also put a misspelled version of helter-skelter in reference to the inner racial war that they were trying to start.

CrimeAndCompulsion:She had one job. I just want a job

Josh:She, she  had to, okay. She had to write rise and death to pigs as well. All

CrimeAndCompulsion:that's as much as She can remember


Josh:She got hit in the head with a lamp. What do you want from yeah.  They're just trying so hard to start this race war and it's clearly not.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Y'all haven't killed any like actual pigs yet.

Like no [00:30:00] cops have been murdered. You're killing like high profile white people. And then really old white people,

like, come on.

Josh:yeah, I have no doubt if they tried to like kill anyone that was like even remotely trained, that they would not, not have gone on this

CrimeAndCompulsion:Way different

Josh:been stopped immediately and not to say like like, like Rosemary tried or like fought off and tried her best. And.  it, is a terrible thing.

That's happened to these people, but they're definitely picking on people who are they're in a more vulnerable state.  Like a pregnant woman in old people, you know, it's not. Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of disgusting. the murder scene on Waverly drive may have been much cleaner than the one on Celio drive.

But it was no less horrific uh, medical examiner later found out that Lino BluBlockers supported 12 stab wounds while his wife's body board 41,

many of which had been done post-mortem. So as you said, Karen  it's very clear that they enjoyed all of this is kind of disgusting.


Anakin's the same one she [00:31:00] dedicated like in the house, not in the restroom, but like on a staircase on the way out, Just to like further add insult to injury.

Josh:lovely. and we didn't have DNA stuff back then. So I guess it was probably harder to identify, but that is a next level. sociopath psychopath. I don't even know what you'd classify that as I'm just trying to picture, like putting myself in their situation. You've just murdered a bunch of people and you're still at the crime scene.

There's no way I could defecate, like, I would be way

CrimeAndCompulsion:you gotta go,

you gotta go.

Josh:Yeah. Well, that's true. That's true. I guess. I'm going before. I'm

CrimeAndCompulsion:It was that,

Josh:like, Oh shit.  local authorities , several months to determine who was

behind the tragic murders, but in December, 1969, they finally caught

up to Charles Manson and the family a few months later


July 24th, 1970, their trial began. There was no doubt that Charles had [00:32:00] orchestrated the murders.

However, that didn't stop several members of his family from continuing to support him.

In fact, Cathy Gillis,  kitty, let singer Sandy good. And Brendan McCain all kept a vigil throughout the entire trial kneeling on the hot sidewalk  outside of the Los Angeles hall of justice with their shaved heads bowed in solidarity.

CrimeAndCompulsion:You also mean like, some of them carved Xs into their forehead. Like they were still doing

literally whatever he told



Josh:make them or did


CrimeAndCompulsion:All right. They saw him do it? and then they did the same thing. And then they turned cause it's his started as an X before it became a swastika. So they were just copying him.

Josh:Ooh. That's not great.


CrimeAndCompulsion:That just shows you like what kind of power and manipulation he had over them that even after he's arrested, not even telling them anything, they're still just following blindly and they shaved their heads and carved the Xs on their foreheads. Yeah. What was the whole deal with shaving their heads? Like,

why, why did they do that? Maybe it was just way too


The hot sidewalk gets you, [00:33:00] man.

Josh:yeah, I, I honestly, I'm not sure why they shaved their heads. 

CrimeAndCompulsion:I don't

think they even knew.

Josh:yeah, it could have just been at that point. You're probably going crazy from the heat. Um, The,

defense put up a good fight, but the evidence was just too overwhelming and impossible to refute. They also had to deal with the  sentiment of a horrified American public, who couldn't stomach the idea of how much  a bunch of wealthy people living in a huge gated mansion was brutally killed by a group whom they perceive to be mere drugged up hippies  which is fair.


Uh, um,

CrimeAndCompulsion:all the parents that are like telling their kids, oh, you can't do drugs. You don't want to be a hippie. You're going to turn out to this. And they're like, nah, man, we're just about peace and love. And then this happens and the parents, like God

Josh:Yeah. and I, I'm going to be honest, I think this, this had a huge influence on, on America when it comes to like drug legalization, I think uh,

CrimeAndCompulsion:elected. So yeah, like it, both of these right back are back-to-back. This is why we're in the state that we're in


[00:34:00] Josh:Yeah. When you guys give the taxing drugs for years and you'd be, it'd be great.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Right? I never murdered anyone high on LSD that You remember, but I remember.

Josh:that's true. Are

there Palm prints or any,

any bloodstains all over your

CrimeAndCompulsion:Shit. That's what that is.

She tried to say that it was our kids drawing on the walls.

Josh:Oh, God damn it didn't look like crown.

 All of

those involved in the Tate LeBlanca massacre were ultimately

found guilty. On June 25th, 1971, Charles Manson was convicted of first degree murder

and conspiracy to commit murder, which landed him the death penalty, capital punishment, however, was outlawed by the county fornia Supreme court, the following year, which was why his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment.

Which if there's anyone who probably deserved the death penalty. Yeah. It might've been him. He might've deserved it.  during his incarceration, Charles reportedly received more male than any other prisoner in the United [00:35:00] States. Most of these containing questions regarding his motivations, given that he apparently had no personal connection with any of the victims in the Tate LeBlanca murder.

they also asked how he managed to turn a group of liberal peace, loving and, and use  and to mass murders, cruel enough to kill a pregnant woman. Which are fair questions.  drugs. Yeah. Well, that's a lot of people do assume. there's more to that, but that's a lot of conspiracy stuff with the FBI and mind control and

probably bullshit.

But you never know, 

CrimeAndCompulsion:Well, LSD alone is not going to make you murder people, not at all, but it makes them very, very susceptible to bullshit preaching from somebody that they think is the son of


Josh:Yeah, I guess my only pushback to that would be that I've, I've covered quite a few calls at this point and someone can control young people without

drugs. There's a lot of those

as well. think drugs definitely, maybe. Worked quicker into him, controlling them and

maybe took it to a further [00:36:00] extent than most

other calls that I've covered. But for younger people they are just mostly looking for some sort of answer to the life's

questions. they're not getting it from, from life I guess. And so they, they, they go searching and, and a lot of them find like a lot of these charismatic. Leaders and start to follow them. And so I, I would say I would argue it probably wasn't just the drugs.

 probably played a part,

CrimeAndCompulsion:Okay. Like these young girls, like he knew exactly who he was preying on. Most of them had like huge abandonment issues that were incredible young. They didn't have the best relationship with her families. And one of the things Patty said in one of her interviews was that, you know, she joined the group and then she immediately slept with Manson and he was the first person to ever even tell her that she was beautiful.

And she said from That, moment on, like, he literally could do no wrong in her eyes.

Josh:Yeah. That, and that's what it is. Right? It's it's. Young people who don't necessarily know any better.

CrimeAndCompulsion:You just want [00:37:00] to belong then?

Josh:Yeah, yeah. And belong in a group that that will will welcome you. And it's not like he just, it's not like as soon as he created the group, he was like uh, all right. We hate black people. Uh, there's going to be a race war.

Like it it's like boiling a frog in water.  you, you slowly raise the temperature. and before long the frog dead, like that's, that's a morbid description, but that's basically what it is. They, he eases them into it. And then.  gets all these young and vulnerable people into the group and then slowly raises the temperature of the circumstances and what the group's about.



a lot of them, a lot of the followers and interviews have said that he just had this uncanny ability to make you feel like the most special person on earth. And I just that alone, if you're, you know, and then you seek out vulnerable people, that are coming from broken families, or, you know, a broken situation, just that and it in and of itself will make you stick

with that person forever.

Josh:that's exactly it. Yeah.  ,

however, he also received letters [00:38:00] from people claiming to be his fans, as well as from women who express their deep affection

for him.

Besides praising his work. They also declared their staunch

belief in his ideologies And his sermons. Charles attempted to be granted parole multiple

times throughout the years. However, all of his applications were unsurprisingly

rejected. The massacre that he had  ordered his family, to carry out, had shattered the sense of safety and security that the American public enjoyed.

And so the authorities were more than reluctant to let them back out on the streets, which is fair. I mean, like. Yeah, we, I think we all would after 1969, no one in the United States felt truly safe inside their homes ever again, bit of a bit of a

hyperbolic. Yeah. Charles man, and lived out the rest of his days inside prison, dying of natural causes on November 19th, 2017, he was 83 years old.

given the brutal chain of events that Charles Manson integrated, it isn't surprising at all that he became an object [00:39:00] of fascination for psychologists around the world. Many have diagnosed him with antisocial personality disorder due

to how he exploited

others without displaying an ounce of remorse. He

has also been identified as

a sociopath who thrived on manipulating and

controlling others. This seems to be in line, given how he

managed to get his family, to kill eight people simply by informing them of

an apocalypse that was allegedly

about to happen.  Psychological stuff, studies into Charles Manson and his family continued to this day.

However, there's a chance that we will never know the true depths of his evil. And that is the Manson family. before we move on, was there anything I missed? Any, any big things? I know  you're an expert, Karen. Uh, I want to hear uh, if there was anything big, I missed anything major that we overlooked.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Uh, Shorty's death. Cause that's the only person that Manson actually ever killed.

Josh:Oh, interesting.

 CrimeAndCompulsion:when the police first raided the ranch, they weren't even there because of the murders. The police hadn't even connected that yet.

so they were [00:40:00] actually there because of stolen dune, buggies, and shit,

um, and Manson convinced. The, the family that shorty Shea who was a drug dealer that he had tipped the police about the stolen cars.

 so him, Bruce Davis and Tex Watson went over to his place and Manson shot him. So when everyone says Manson's never actually killed anyone, it's actually not true because he



CrimeAndCompulsion:just, yeah, he just wasn't involved in, you know, the big sensationalized murders.

Josh:Well, so now I have so many more questions. So he used a gun to murder shorty. You said,

CrimeAndCompulsion:Yeah, he shot him.

Josh:Why was that not a thing later on? Like why did they just not use guns to make it cleaner and quicker?

CrimeAndCompulsion:that's a very

good question. No, I don't know,

Josh:Uh, that's a Cause I, if I'm Charles, like, he's like, oh, I like a



CrimeAndCompulsion:was so


Josh:Yeah, like I've done this already.

I know. [00:41:00] I know how easy it is. Like why not just continue that? Or like, cause the black Panther just definitely had guns. I don't know. Like if he's trying to connect the two, it wouldn't make a difference that way. yeah, that's weird. I, but that's a very, that I apologize for looking over that one.

There's just so much with this with this cult there's a lot of information.

CrimeAndCompulsion:So dune buggies though.

So the apocalyptic, you know, interracial war that was coming he preached that they were going to survive it in that city. so according to his, his preaching, no, that that city was at like the bottom of a huge pit in the middle of the desert.

Josh:Yeah, death

CrimeAndCompulsion:Yeah, they so apparently like every day he would make like two of his followers hopping on dune buggies, and like ride around the desert, looking for that pit multiple times,

Josh:What a waste and a waste of

CrimeAndCompulsion:just run around the desert aimlessly, looking for a bottomless bit. Okay. So I just looked it up real quick and I was wrong. He was not shot. He was stabbed. [00:42:00] No, that makes more sense than


CrimeAndCompulsion:my memory is just shit.

Josh:No, no, no, no problem. makes more sense. That's in line with the

murders. I was like, how, why would he just shoot him and then not shoot anyone else?


CrimeAndCompulsion:I was like, Hey, Google, Google,


Josh:Yeah, Google knows

everything. watching us right now or he, what do you

think Google

is they?

Yeah, true. now, before we end off the show, we have to do my favorite segment that we do after every

cult called cult critiques basically my guests and I

take a look at the cult we just discussed and we give it a rating out of five stars,

 uh, as if you were writing something on Yelp and we give comments on why we gave them that rating.

 are you guys ready to rate the Manson family? Awesome. Um, Ben, do you want to go first? How many stars are you given the rent Manson family?

CrimeAndCompulsion:I'm going to give it a three and a half.

Josh:That's solid. wha why, why three and a


CrimeAndCompulsion:there for a good time, but then you leave hungry. And as a murderer,

Josh:it's like, [00:43:00] it's like every uh, every uh, What am


thinking of?

CrimeAndCompulsion:festival I've been


Josh:festival. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like every music festival ever. You go in have a good time and then you come out with like a worst hangover ever. Uh, Karen you're you're up. How many stars do you have been?

CrimeAndCompulsion:I want to say one, but I'm going to be honest. And I'm going to give the Manson Colt a five,

Josh:Ooh, this might be the


CrimeAndCompulsion:explain. You're like, what the fuck

did I marry?

Josh:She's like, I wrote many letters to Manson.

CrimeAndCompulsion:No. so I am a reformed hippie.  and I did a lot of music festival Ling and Yeah.


CrimeAndCompulsion:and my former years. So had I been alive in 1969, when Manson was collecting family members, I can see why they, joined the Colt. I can see why they stuck around I probably would have been on that Volkswagen, little beetle [00:44:00] buzz that they had.

Yeah. Then you would have been driving around the district and I would be in prison afterwards without like signing up for that. But I think you would have actually gone and committed the murder. You would've been like, No, this is where our peace out, but I would probably be like squeaky cause squeaky never like, she wasn't involved in the murders, but then she likes still stuck by him and like went

to court every day and

Josh:I feel with your, with your obsession of true crime, you'd be there at every crime scene with a notebook, just jotting it


CrimeAndCompulsion:This is what you did wrong this time.

Josh:Yeah, guys, we can do this so much better. I've wrote in a written out everything


CrimeAndCompulsion:Thanks Tom. Don't shit on the stairs.

Josh:Sharon. You're really shitting the bed. Here we go.

That's awesome. Well, I love those reviews. Those are perfect. I'd like to thank everyone for listening. Karen Ben, if you don't mind, please let my listeners know where they can find your podcast. That's

CrimeAndCompulsion:It's up on  apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you get a podcast, you can [00:45:00] find us on our website as well. Cramming.

Josh:awesome. Well, I appreciate you guys coming out. Uh, thank you, Fred for listening and we will see you guys next time.

CrimeAndCompulsion:Thank you. It was fun.

Crime & CompulsionProfile Photo

Crime & Compulsion


Dive into the darker side of humanity, but from the safety of your own couch.
Join us Ben and Karen, husband and wife team, as we delve deeper into the mind of serial killers, heinous murders, unsolved mysteries, and true crime investigations. We’re fascinated by aberrant behavior, and the path of twisted perception. If all you do is read about crime, if you have serial killer posters in your bedroom, if you’re hiding newspaper article clippings under your bed … don’t be concerned. We share your compulsion. You’re at the right place.